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February 20, 2012 in News, City, Idaho
ATF joins probe of Post Falls mansion fire
A house in Post Falls was destroyed by fire on Feb. 16, 2012.
(Full-size photo)
The federal bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives will join the investigation of the Thursday fire that gutted a million-dollar mansion in Post Falls overlooking the Spokane River.
Dan Ryan, spokesman for Kootenai County Fire & Rescue, said an investigator with the ATF wasn’t available to join the investigation until Tuesday. The cause of the fire remains undetermined.
“A fire that size taxes a department the size of ours,” Ryan said.
Last week, investigators brought in an accelerant-sniffing dog which alerted investigators to a couple of areas inside the home, owned by Leonard and Pamela Wallace. The home, which was assessed at about $1.5 million, had been the subject of a pending foreclosure.
“The dog did have a couple hits. We took some samples and sent them to the lab. But the dogs work off petroleum smells. We have petroleum products all around our houses,” Ryan said.
Those lab results are expected in a couple weeks, he said. In the meantime, the Wallace’s insurance company hired a security agency to secure the home over this past weekend until investigators begin anew on Tuesday, Ryan said.
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986crazy on February 20 at 11:42 a.m.
I agree that this is VERY suspicious, but, if this were a $100k fire would KCFR call in the ATF? I know they wouldn’t. So why did they? Was it because the insurance company would stand to lose so much money? If that’s the reason why would KCFR care? They shouldn’t care any more or any less based on home value. So who’s the fire insurance carrier on the home? Is the insurance agent related to someone at KCFR? The whole wretched mess wreaks; both the fire and the investigation. I have petroleum based accelerants located throughout my home too: Master Bath: Nail polish remover, hair products, spray startch, Garage: Gas cans, starter fluid, brake fluid, paint…
I am 100% sure they’ll find something if they look hard enough and blame it on that just to give the insurance company an excuse to deny the claim.
oneanddone on February 20 at 11:43 a.m.
You can fool some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but unless you’re a professional arsonist you likely won’t fool the professional investigators. They’ve seen it all before. I think 20 years is a good price to pay.
brianrbreen on February 20 at 12:07 p.m.
The insurance company can’t deny the claim unless they can prove it was arson and the insured was responsible for the arson.
zelda on February 20 at 12:38 p.m.
I imagine there were liens against the house, so lots of stakeholders in this matter. The manner in which this house burned down as well as the circumstances of the owners warrant a very thorough investigation. When houses burn, they typically don’t explode like an oil refinery.
brianrbreen on February 20 at 12:53 p.m.
@Zelda
It will be interesting to see if the ATF determines it was an HTA (High Temperature Accelerant) fire. That could be telling, but even if it were they would have to tie the suspects to the arson, sometimes not an easy task.
SMARTGUY on February 20 at 12:58 p.m.
If they were trying to take my house, I would concider burning it down too. Of course my modest $ 70,000 house, that I have been paying on for 13 years, would not make much of a fire.
zelda on February 20 at 1:05 p.m.
Brian — What is a high-temperature accelerant? Any examples? Not that I’m trying to put together a primer on arson, but it seems like the cases that result in a conviction are those where someone blabs or brags about it to another person.
But, even if the investigators can’t link the evidence to a person, the insurance company has ways to delay payment for a very long time. Given that the owners are bankrupt and now are representing themselves in court in civil matters, it doesn’t look they have a lot of resources to engage in countersuits against State Farm.
brianrbreen on February 20 at 1:33 p.m.
@Zelda
The ATF has been investigating for some time the possibility that HTA fires are the product of arson for hire conspiracy. There have been a number of very sophisticated arson fires all over the US and Canada where an HTA was used, and the last I heard (a few years ago). ATF had not been able to identify exactly what the accelerant is. The reason I have kind of kept up on it is because one of my murder cases was Firefighter Paul Heidenreich who died in the Tri-State Distributors arson here in Spokane and that case was included in those arsons which are possibly HTA arsons.
Most of the HTA arsons were big money (multi-million) torch jobs.
As far as the insurance companies are concerned…oh yes…they will do whatever they can to deny the claim if there is even a hint of arson, and they can remotely tie it to the insured, but the usually end up in some type of settlement.
zelda on February 20 at 2:10 p.m.
Brian — Just read part of an ATF scientific paper from 1994 about HTAs. Very interesting. I had forgotten that the 1982 Tri-State Fire in Spokane was labeled an HTA fire. Seems like this HTA stuff was a popular method in the Pacific NW — lots of fires in Yakima during that era. From what I could gather, sounds like a mixture of powdered metal and rocket fuel, but labs tests weren’t able to replicate the fires’ forensic results. I imagine there’s more recent science on this or does the mystery remain?
It’s scary to think that there are people out there dabbling in and trying to perfect this method, i.e., Timothy McVeigh but more scientifically sophisticated.
I gather that no arrests were ever made in the fires identified as caused by HTAs.
brianrbreen on February 20 at 2:11 p.m.
No Arrests.
PROFINTOX on February 20 at 2:14 p.m.
@zelda — yes, correct regarding insurance companies. Even with no criminal investigation or with a criminal investigation with an acquittal, an insurance company can deny based on their investigation determining arson by the claimant. Of course, if they are taken to court, they cannot just say “because that is what we think” — there is still a standard that applies. As it is a civil case, beyond a reasonable doubt does not apply, however, different courts have held differently regarding the standard with the least being “preponderance” which applies to most civil cases and the most being “clear, cogent and convincing” which I believe (not sure since I am not a lawyer) is basically splitting the difference between preponderance and beyond a reasonable doubt.
brianrbreen on February 20 at 2:49 p.m.
“an insurance company can deny based on their investigation determining arson by the claimant.”
And that is a story in and of itself.
RedCedar on February 20 at 3:14 p.m.
Maybe I don’t have the right mindset to be a criminal, but it seems to me that fancy incendiaries like these so-called “HTAs” (thermite?) would be a lousy choice because they’d leave very clear evidence, like a pile of slag and maybe a hole melted or burned through whatever it was setting on. It seems to me that a “successful” arsonist would simply put a match to some cardboard boxes or papers in the garage or basement, or leave the gas on on the stove with a candle burning nearby.
All this fancy thinking sounds too much like the villain in a James Bond movie who’s devised some incredibly clever way to kill 007 and wants to spend a long time explaining it to him before he does it.
brianrbreen on February 20 at 3:26 p.m.
Well I think the theory is if you are getting paid to do a good job, you do a good job. You want everything to go and go fast so you don’t run the risk of not having a total loss and missing the big pay off. Who knows maybe there are warranties involved.
zelda on February 20 at 3:47 p.m.
@redcedar — Even though there are simpler ways of setting a fire, sometimes people have motives in additional to the monetary gain. Maybe they want to make a statement that communicates their feelings of vengeance or retribution or rage. And sometimes they just want to show off. It never ceases to amaze me the inventive ways that people come up with to blow stuff up. Must be some sort of primal urge which I fortunately don’t have. I read about traffic stops where the cops search the car and lo and behold, there’s a pipe bomb, like that’s a regular auto accessory in the Pacific NW or a standard hobbyist’s item.
RedCedar on February 20 at 3:53 p.m.
I dunno… My lawyer tells me that a contract for an illegal activity is unenforceable — you can’t sue the guy the guy that sold you a bag of Nebraska ditch weed after you paid for sticky stinky indica bud — so if Andy paid Bob to torch his house, and the fire went out, I think Andy would have a hard time taking Bob to court over it. But what do I know? All I know about crime came from watching TV.
brianrbreen on February 20 at 3:58 p.m.
@Red
You are probably right… no litigation…but wouldn’t be good for the business reputation…and I can just imagine what Angie’s List would say.
PROFINTOX on February 20 at 4:14 p.m.
@Red — absolutely right. Contracts for illegal activities are unenforceable, or “void” if you will. They are treated as if they never existed. However, in the “Andy and Bob” example, there could certainly be criminal charges depending on the evidence at hand and how the authorities felt it would fare in court (in this case, conspiracy to commit arson and attempted arson come to mind).
MrBloggy on February 20 at 4:45 p.m.
Wrong on no arrests. MrB’s very inside information tells me the mother has been busted.
brianrbreen on February 20 at 5:15 p.m.
@MrB
That was no arrests on the HTA arsons Zelda was asking about.
jimmy on February 20 at 9:20 p.m.
Brian Breen- it’s been a very long time since I have seen Paul’s name in print. He was a great guy and had an excellent firefighting related nickname-“hydrant wrench” … we were shown videos of a HTA fire set by the ATF and this Post Falls fire looks very similar.
brianrbreen on February 20 at 9:36 p.m.
Everyone told me what a wonderful guy he was.
If it is HTA it will likely be a tough one, and a hell of a lot of work.
brianrbreen on February 20 at 9:42 p.m.
@jimmy
Don’t forget Seattle lost a firefighter in the Blackstock arson as well
zelda on February 20 at 10:52 p.m.
Where do people get this HTA stuff? Are they sneaking it out of Thiokol operations in Utah or proving grounds? Creepy thought. I guess that’s for ATF and other investigators to find out. I wish them luck.
jimmy on February 20 at 10:53 p.m.
@BB I was in Seattle for a Mariners’ game and saw and heard multiple rigs heading to the fire, watched from the Mercer street level, found a pay phone (remember those?) and called my wife to give her the scoop ( she was a TV news anchor) didn’t know they had lost a man till the next day.. 6 different fireground radio channels, I think L&I fined them 160k
brianrbreen on February 21 at 6:16 a.m.
@jimmy
Remember pay phones…hell I remember Call Boxes for the beat cops. This fire hasn’t been called. I hope it isn’t arson but if it is the work has just begun. It is nice for smaller jurisdictions to have ATF available to them to help out.
One good thing about this fire is that no one was killed or seriously injured.